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	<title>Comments on: CPU Diversification: Ubuntu&#039;s Gain, Microsoft&#039;s Loss</title>
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		<title>By: Ubuntu Weekly News #145 &#124; Ubuntu-News - Your one stop for news about Ubuntu</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117996</link>
		<dc:creator>Ubuntu Weekly News #145 &#124; Ubuntu-News - Your one stop for news about Ubuntu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117996</guid>
		<description>[...] Weekly Newsletter #143Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter #142 WorksWithUTest-driving Chrome for UbuntuCPU Diversification: Ubuntu’s Gain, Microsoft’s LossLinux Standards, And Why They Shouldn’t Matter Ubuntu GeekGRUB 2 now default for Ubuntu 9.10 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Weekly Newsletter #143Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter #142 WorksWithUTest-driving Chrome for UbuntuCPU Diversification: Ubuntu’s Gain, Microsoft’s LossLinux Standards, And Why They Shouldn’t Matter Ubuntu GeekGRUB 2 now default for Ubuntu 9.10 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117995</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117995</guid>
		<description>I think something to consider is that the OS is becoming less and less relevant, while more and more of the functionality is run from servers and played inside a web browser. Things like: does Flash run on my platform? Does skype run on my platform? These are becoming very important questions ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think something to consider is that the OS is becoming less and less relevant, while more and more of the functionality is run from servers and played inside a web browser. Things like: does Flash run on my platform? Does skype run on my platform? These are becoming very important questions &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: anko</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117994</link>
		<dc:creator>anko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117994</guid>
		<description>In regard to the possibility of MS porting it&#039;s entire OS at this point to another architecture, I just don&#039;t see it happening. Where I work we&#039;re testing the deployment of Windows 7 - yes, it&#039;s an RC, but we&#039;re a (un)fortunate MS guinea pig here. Windows at this point has so many integrated components, isolated compatibility functions and a million other things, that another architecture to support what&#039;s going on in the system, would be an undertaking that would require more time than it took to supposedly develop Windows Vista.
Right now Windows 7 can&#039;t even run 10% of our regular business applications here on basic x86_64 arch. which should be flawless.
Linux and friends are about all that will be on ARM and MIPS, and if played right, a great place to showcase a cost saving hardware ecosystem for businesses in the foreseeable future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regard to the possibility of MS porting it&#8217;s entire OS at this point to another architecture, I just don&#8217;t see it happening. Where I work we&#8217;re testing the deployment of Windows 7 &#8211; yes, it&#8217;s an RC, but we&#8217;re a (un)fortunate MS guinea pig here. Windows at this point has so many integrated components, isolated compatibility functions and a million other things, that another architecture to support what&#8217;s going on in the system, would be an undertaking that would require more time than it took to supposedly develop Windows Vista.<br />
Right now Windows 7 can&#8217;t even run 10% of our regular business applications here on basic x86_64 arch. which should be flawless.<br />
Linux and friends are about all that will be on ARM and MIPS, and if played right, a great place to showcase a cost saving hardware ecosystem for businesses in the foreseeable future.</p>
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		<title>By: Blackhole</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117993</link>
		<dc:creator>Blackhole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 06:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117993</guid>
		<description>&quot;Once the OS is up, its a trivial matter of running the applications ontop of the OS. If its done correctly you would not even need to re-compile the apps, but mabey you do.&quot;

@darryl

What you are describing is not just an OS but an emulator, where software emulates a different processor.  That is *very* expensive in terms of CPU load.  As I understand it, the &quot;alternative&quot; processors being discussed are generally not very powerful.  So I imagine if you tried to emulate x86 on them they apps would run very, very, slowly -- to the point of being unusable.

For a normal (non-emulating) OS, while the apps would make system calls, most of the time the apps are executing their own native CPU instructions.  The other way what you describe could work is if all of the apps are interpred or run in a vm, as I believe is the case with .NET.  But in that case the apps have a performance penalty *regardless* of the CPU they run on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Once the OS is up, its a trivial matter of running the applications ontop of the OS. If its done correctly you would not even need to re-compile the apps, but mabey you do.&#8221;</p>
<p>@darryl</p>
<p>What you are describing is not just an OS but an emulator, where software emulates a different processor.  That is *very* expensive in terms of CPU load.  As I understand it, the &#8220;alternative&#8221; processors being discussed are generally not very powerful.  So I imagine if you tried to emulate x86 on them they apps would run very, very, slowly &#8212; to the point of being unusable.</p>
<p>For a normal (non-emulating) OS, while the apps would make system calls, most of the time the apps are executing their own native CPU instructions.  The other way what you describe could work is if all of the apps are interpred or run in a vm, as I believe is the case with .NET.  But in that case the apps have a performance penalty *regardless* of the CPU they run on.</p>
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		<title>By: Links 04/06/2009: UNIX Turns 40, New KDE4 Released &#124; Boycott Novell</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117992</link>
		<dc:creator>Links 04/06/2009: UNIX Turns 40, New KDE4 Released &#124; Boycott Novell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117992</guid>
		<description>[...] CPU Diversification: Ubuntu’s Gain, Microsoft’s Loss If ARM and other alternative architectures prove popular among PC vendors over the long term, Windows and OS X will be locked out of a substantial portion of the market, especially on netbooks and other portable devices. In the absence of proprietary platforms, the dominance of Ubuntu and other Linux distributions is all but assured. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] CPU Diversification: Ubuntu’s Gain, Microsoft’s Loss If ARM and other alternative architectures prove popular among PC vendors over the long term, Windows and OS X will be locked out of a substantial portion of the market, especially on netbooks and other portable devices. In the absence of proprietary platforms, the dominance of Ubuntu and other Linux distributions is all but assured. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: darryl</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117991</link>
		<dc:creator>darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117991</guid>
		<description>SMP
you seem to forget the Operating System _IS_ the layer between the hardware and the applications.
I know many Linux people like to &quot;USE&quot; their operating system.

But for more people, they use applications that run ontop and hook into the OS either by API&#039;s or whatever (abi&#039;s and so on).

Therefore, once you get the OS working on a CPU it will function as the layer for the hardware (ie the REQUIRED binary drivers, for the new hardware) will be handles by the OS.

Once the OS is up, its a trivial matter of running the applications ontop of the OS.  If its done correctly you would not even need to re-compile the apps, but mabey you do.

Either way, im sure 95,000 people in MS would be able to work it out and get the code re-compiled quicker than Linus could go through the 5+ Millions lines of Kernel source by himself. !!.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SMP<br />
you seem to forget the Operating System _IS_ the layer between the hardware and the applications.<br />
I know many Linux people like to &#8220;USE&#8221; their operating system.</p>
<p>But for more people, they use applications that run ontop and hook into the OS either by API&#8217;s or whatever (abi&#8217;s and so on).</p>
<p>Therefore, once you get the OS working on a CPU it will function as the layer for the hardware (ie the REQUIRED binary drivers, for the new hardware) will be handles by the OS.</p>
<p>Once the OS is up, its a trivial matter of running the applications ontop of the OS.  If its done correctly you would not even need to re-compile the apps, but mabey you do.</p>
<p>Either way, im sure 95,000 people in MS would be able to work it out and get the code re-compiled quicker than Linus could go through the 5+ Millions lines of Kernel source by himself. !!.</p>
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		<title>By: darryl</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117990</link>
		<dc:creator>darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117990</guid>
		<description>In the 1990&#039;s Win NT was ported to the ALPHA cpu, and im sure the MS boys (and girls) know how to use a compiler.

And dont forget! It&#039;s MS who after all runs the show, and if a CPU or a product will not run the friendly and familiar MS software, then they will reject it.

MS will enter the market aka. the Netbook market and people will see the familar Windows desktop and open their cheque books.

After all, the customer is always right, you can tell someone about linux all day, but if they prefer Windows they will use windows.

Until, Linux gets to the stage where is can do everything that MS Windows can do, and offer MORE with little or no worry or hassle in changing over and you&#039;ll win huge market share.
But offer less or the same or similar but different and they stay away like its the plague.

Basing your hopes on a Linux &quot;Lock-in&quot; trick wont work, it did not work for netbooks and it wont work now. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the 1990&#8242;s Win NT was ported to the ALPHA cpu, and im sure the MS boys (and girls) know how to use a compiler.</p>
<p>And dont forget! It&#8217;s MS who after all runs the show, and if a CPU or a product will not run the friendly and familiar MS software, then they will reject it.</p>
<p>MS will enter the market aka. the Netbook market and people will see the familar Windows desktop and open their cheque books.</p>
<p>After all, the customer is always right, you can tell someone about linux all day, but if they prefer Windows they will use windows.</p>
<p>Until, Linux gets to the stage where is can do everything that MS Windows can do, and offer MORE with little or no worry or hassle in changing over and you&#8217;ll win huge market share.<br />
But offer less or the same or similar but different and they stay away like its the plague.</p>
<p>Basing your hopes on a Linux &#8220;Lock-in&#8221; trick wont work, it did not work for netbooks and it wont work now. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: SMP</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117989</link>
		<dc:creator>SMP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117989</guid>
		<description>Windows is proprietary and is dependent on proprietary third party binary applications and proprietary third party binary drivers. This is why porting Windows to other CPU architectures will not be successful in capturing marketshare. Third party proprietary developers will only support Windows on x86. Microsoft realises that by concentrating development effort on x86 and not popularizing other architectures by porting Windows to them, they stand a better chance of building a proprietary ecosystem that they can control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Windows is proprietary and is dependent on proprietary third party binary applications and proprietary third party binary drivers. This is why porting Windows to other CPU architectures will not be successful in capturing marketshare. Third party proprietary developers will only support Windows on x86. Microsoft realises that by concentrating development effort on x86 and not popularizing other architectures by porting Windows to them, they stand a better chance of building a proprietary ecosystem that they can control.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Tozzi</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117988</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Tozzi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117988</guid>
		<description>Leo: thanks for that link.  I was surprised to see that even Debian has higher market share than Fedora, at least among the readers of Linux Journal.  SUSE&#039;s numbers are also considerably lower than those that I&#039;ve seen elsewhere.

John: you make a good point, and I agree that the Linux community lost a major opportunity by resting on its laurels in the netbook market, only to be overtaken by Microsoft without a real fight.

That said, I suspect that if Microsoft were intending to build Windows for ARM anytime in the foreseeable future, we&#039;d already be hearing about it, because the company would want to generate buzz and encourage PC vendors to include Windows in any plans for ARM devices that they might be formulating.  Since Microsoft has yet to announce that it&#039;s even thinking about porting Windows to ARM, it&#039;s likely that it has no intention of doing so, at least for the time being.  I imagine Redmond wants more assurance that ARM on netbooks is not just a fad before it invests money into an ARM port of Windows.

It&#039;s also hard to know how easy it would be to port Windows to ARM, since we can&#039;t see the source code.  Torvalds made the decision in the early 1990s to design the Linux kernel modularly so that it would be easy to port to new architectures; since Microsoft has been so closely tied to x86 since the DOS era, it might be fair to assume that Windows wasn&#039;t designed to be easily ported to new CPUs.  That doesn&#039;t mean Microsoft can&#039;t port it to ARM if it wants--it certainly has the resources--but it might take a while.

But as you say, this doesn&#039;t mean Linux should sit around assuming that Windows will never be ported.  I very much agree that there should be a plan for taking advantage of this opportunity.  But given the radical decentralization of Linux, and the Linux Foundation&#039;s lack of grounding in the real world (as opposed to the Stallman/Raymond world where every end user is an expert programmer and free-software ideologue), I&#039;m doubtful any kind of meaningful plan involving the whole community would develop.  Canonical/Novell/Red Hat might be able to pull something off if they tried, however--especially Canonical, since it&#039;s most focused on the desktop, where ARM is most relevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leo: thanks for that link.  I was surprised to see that even Debian has higher market share than Fedora, at least among the readers of Linux Journal.  SUSE&#8217;s numbers are also considerably lower than those that I&#8217;ve seen elsewhere.</p>
<p>John: you make a good point, and I agree that the Linux community lost a major opportunity by resting on its laurels in the netbook market, only to be overtaken by Microsoft without a real fight.</p>
<p>That said, I suspect that if Microsoft were intending to build Windows for ARM anytime in the foreseeable future, we&#8217;d already be hearing about it, because the company would want to generate buzz and encourage PC vendors to include Windows in any plans for ARM devices that they might be formulating.  Since Microsoft has yet to announce that it&#8217;s even thinking about porting Windows to ARM, it&#8217;s likely that it has no intention of doing so, at least for the time being.  I imagine Redmond wants more assurance that ARM on netbooks is not just a fad before it invests money into an ARM port of Windows.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also hard to know how easy it would be to port Windows to ARM, since we can&#8217;t see the source code.  Torvalds made the decision in the early 1990s to design the Linux kernel modularly so that it would be easy to port to new architectures; since Microsoft has been so closely tied to x86 since the DOS era, it might be fair to assume that Windows wasn&#8217;t designed to be easily ported to new CPUs.  That doesn&#8217;t mean Microsoft can&#8217;t port it to ARM if it wants&#8211;it certainly has the resources&#8211;but it might take a while.</p>
<p>But as you say, this doesn&#8217;t mean Linux should sit around assuming that Windows will never be ported.  I very much agree that there should be a plan for taking advantage of this opportunity.  But given the radical decentralization of Linux, and the Linux Foundation&#8217;s lack of grounding in the real world (as opposed to the Stallman/Raymond world where every end user is an expert programmer and free-software ideologue), I&#8217;m doubtful any kind of meaningful plan involving the whole community would develop.  Canonical/Novell/Red Hat might be able to pull something off if they tried, however&#8211;especially Canonical, since it&#8217;s most focused on the desktop, where ARM is most relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117987</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117987</guid>
		<description>How difficult is it for MS to port Windows to other platforms? What&#039;s to say they aren&#039;t already doing it &amp; we don&#039;t know ab it yet? This seems to be our strategy -- wait for MS to NOT do something, claim it as a victory &amp; then watch them go ahead &amp; do that very thing, ala Netbook, then spin the passive victory &amp; subsequent failure as FUD, or a conspiracy.  What will the Linuxes do to assure this lead is not lost? Is there a plan?
I wish the Linux Foundation, or somebody, would really take the lead in in things like this &amp; working w/ manufacturers to make the Linux kernel something that is actively, widely developed for &amp; to improve compatibility. I would love to see them also coordinate strategy among the Linux Developers &amp; Distros. Freedom shouldn&#039;t mean failure. We need coordination &amp; planning to liberate computing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How difficult is it for MS to port Windows to other platforms? What&#8217;s to say they aren&#8217;t already doing it &amp; we don&#8217;t know ab it yet? This seems to be our strategy &#8212; wait for MS to NOT do something, claim it as a victory &amp; then watch them go ahead &amp; do that very thing, ala Netbook, then spin the passive victory &amp; subsequent failure as FUD, or a conspiracy.  What will the Linuxes do to assure this lead is not lost? Is there a plan?<br />
I wish the Linux Foundation, or somebody, would really take the lead in in things like this &amp; working w/ manufacturers to make the Linux kernel something that is actively, widely developed for &amp; to improve compatibility. I would love to see them also coordinate strategy among the Linux Developers &amp; Distros. Freedom shouldn&#8217;t mean failure. We need coordination &amp; planning to liberate computing.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117986</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117986</guid>
		<description>BTW, look at these numbers:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/what-your-favorite-linux-distribution-desktop

The *buntu family is kind of popular ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, look at these numbers:<br />
<a href="http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/what-your-favorite-linux-distribution-desktop" rel="nofollow">http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/what-your-favorite-linux-distribution-desktop</a></p>
<p>The *buntu family is kind of popular <img src='http://c810354.r54.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/03/cpu-diversification-ubuntus-gain-microsofts-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-117985</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.workswithu.com/?p=657#comment-117985</guid>
		<description>George: Re: &quot;Ubuntu != Linux&quot; . Not to speak on behalf of Christopher. But this is an Ubuntu site (which may be clear from the title), so I think it is natural for this post to focus on Ubuntu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George: Re: &#8220;Ubuntu != Linux&#8221; . Not to speak on behalf of Christopher. But this is an Ubuntu site (which may be clear from the title), so I think it is natural for this post to focus on Ubuntu.</p>
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